Interview With Shimon Peres

Excerpts of interview by Richard Beeston, Foreign Editor, with President Shimon Peres of Israel ahead of his visit to London on Monday November 17, 2008

What has happened to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia's 2002 peace plan, which called for full peace between the Arabs and Israel in return for withdrawal of Israel from all lands captured in 1967?

There is a different interpretation of the 2002 plan. It was a take it or leave it (plan). Many of the principles that are included in it are acceptable to us. That does not mean that we do not have a right to make here and there a proposal or a counter-proposal. Most of the points are agreeable and some others are bridgeable. It is a walking proposition not a jumping proposition.

Last year President Bush predicted a Middle East peace agreement by the end of 2008 – that seems unlikely?

Yes (it is unlikely). You see, many things happened in the meantime. Time was short. All of us changed. The obstacles are clearer than ever before.

So the international community is in a more difficult place now than a year ago?

No, a danger is the beginning of solving it. There is a world crisis, but there is also an opportunity. There is a feeling that we have to look afresh.

How might Barack Obama's election change the situation?

This is the beginning of the end of racism. A black man reaching the top position is the strongest answer to Hitler. It is the political equivalent of the black runner (Jesse Owens) who won the gold medal in 1936. No one looked at the colour of his leg or the colour of the sportsman, they measured his speed. The capacity of America to renew itself is a welcome surprise. Obama was elected by the American people, but he was chosen by the world.

What about his position on Iran, he has said he would like to talk to them, is that a real possibility?

If there will be a united policy on Iran and there is a new (lower) price for oil, then Iran will have to come to terms to a proportionate reality of our times. They have been behaving out of proportion. Dialogue should not just be just by words but by deeds. If you hang only on the tongue then I am not sure dialogue will produce more than speeches. If Iranians feel there is a body politic behind it (the push for talks) and they cannot just escape by sending Ahmadinejad to spread quick wisdom then there is a chance. They have to stop three things: they have to stop trying to control the Middle East, through supporting Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas; the second to stop terror, to be the centre of terror, the financing of terror and so on; and third stop the combination of nuclear warheads missiles and threats. As a way of example, if Switzerland were to build a nuclear bomb, we would not be necessarily alarmed. But I would not say Ahmadinejad has a Swiss temperament.

What about Syria?

Syria has a chance and has a dilemma. I think Israel is ready to make peace with Syria and pay the cost. The dilemma is that they can't be at the same time in the peace camp and in the Iranian camp. Peace is a choice, not a cocktail.

So a land for peace deal on the Golan Heights is a possibility?

If you talk about the land you also have to talk about the peace. In order to give land you must be sure that you got peace. The problem with Syria is not so much the land but the peace. Several Israeli prime ministers indicated that they are ready to give back the land. But the Syrians do not indicate they are ready to provide peace. We shall continue to negotiate. We are not short tempered but neither are we blind.

You are coming to Britain this week, are you upset by the anti-Israel sentiment in the country?

I don’t understand them, what do they want? What the hell are they looking for? We did not go to conquer land -- never. We were attacked. Thanks heaven we won the wars without the help of any foreigners. We did not have foreign soldiers on our land. When we tried to make peace we gave back all the land to Egypt and Jordan. I don't understand the criticism. Why are they criticising us? That war is an ugly story, we know it. I can assure them we did not invite it and we are not happy with it and as we have shown we are ready to pay the cost. I do not take their superior position. They do not go into the realities of the situation. They just want to be politically correct…

The one most controversial area is the expansion of Jewish settlements, what is being done about that?

Good I am glad you raised it. We left Gaza. We dismantled, not by pressure but our own initiative, 30 settlements by force and look what happened. The minute we left Gaza, we left the settlements, some of them becoming bases for shooting rockets against Israel. The Israelis ask: 'Do you want us to do it again? To be targeted by missiles?’ Why are they so surprised that we want to make sure it will not happen again?

Has Britain damaged its image in the region because of its role in the Iraq war?

I don't think so. The biggest failure in Iraq was not Britain but Saddam Hussein. If he had not been stopped in Kuwait he would have gone to Saudi Arabia. He was the greatest killer in the Middle East. He initiated the war against Iran and killed one million people, he killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds and fired missiles at Israel. If he would have remained he would have been a brutal dictator with unlimited ambitions. You don't have to apologise for trying to bring an end to it. Churchill does not have to apologise for bringing down another brutal dictator. Thanks heaven.

You are 85, you have lived through the whole of Israel's history, do you expect to see real peace in your life time?

Yes. I don't say that I will live for ever. From my experiences, behind the door, from time to time, you are not only a tiger but a dove too. I know people who are pessimistic are considered more serious than optimists, but they both pass the same way.

Do you think you will ever visit Damascus or Riyadh?

Yes, oh yes. I never imagined that we would have achieved what we did already. A year ago I would never dream, for example, that the secretary general of the United Nations would invite a person like myself to come to a forum with the King of Saudi Arabia. It is not the full performance, neither is it the old convention